Curse

IxChel · Oct 20, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

With the last update, Holy Veil has become the hex removal option of choice. It is cast on a target, and then immediately canceled to remove the top-most hex. In practice, it acts just like Remove Hex but instead of taking 2 seconds to cast, it only takes 1 second.

To remedy this skill imbalance, it would be preferable for Remove Hex to have a 1s cast time (concensus of posters in this thread).

This particular usage has all of the classic ear-marks of unbalance. First, we have a skill that is not used for it's primary effect (to double the casting duration of hex skills), but rather for an additional bonus that the skill has. Then, in order to trigger that bonus (hex removal) the caster does something non-intuitive: they cancel the long-lasting enchantment as soon as it goes up. The actual primary effect of the skill isn't even used. Further, when compared to a similar skill, Remove Hex, we find that this particular skill takes 1/2 of the casting time with almost an equivalent renewal. But besides this raw bonus, it has the side bonus of the primary effect of hex cast time doubling if one wishes to use it that way. In short, this skill is a far better remove hex than remove hex.

There are a few options I can think of:

1) don't make it a maintained enchantment, instead give it a duration of 20-30 seconds or so;

2) since just doubling the hex is inadequate benefit for the 1 pip draw, add another bonus that doesn't remove the hex immediately -- perhaps give the skill a 2..30% chance of immediately canceling any incoming hex.

3) drop the hex cast time doubling idea all together, replacing it with something like "hexes targeted at the enchanted have a 5...45% shorter duration".

On a related note; I'm still unaware of anyway to cancel a maintained enchantment via the keyboard. This has put people like me at a serious competitive dis-advantage. I stay away from the mouse for medical reasons, and I only use the keyboard in PvP. Up till this last update, I was a very competitive healer in PvP; but since I cannot effectively "abuse" Holy Veil like the rest of the healers, I am put at a competitive disadvantage. If the skill doesn't get fixed -- please provide a keyboard shortcut which allows me to cancel the maintained enchantment of my choice. Thanks.

Change #1: I origonally quoted the cast time for remove hex as 3s vs 1s for Holy Veil. This was incorrect, for some reason I thought Holy Veil had a .25 cast time and I was adding in the after-cast. Remove Hex is a 2s cast, and Holy Veil is a 1s cast, giving you a 1s difference. This 1s is a huge difference; my argument remains the same.

Change #2: Added a note to reflect suggestions by multiple posters in this thread that the solution would be to reduce the cast time of Remove Hex to 1s so that it isn't subject to routine interruptions.

unienaule · Oct 20, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Remove hex. 2 second cast time, 7 second recharge time. Holy veil. 1 sec cast time, 10 second recharge. Holy veil removes one every 11 seconds, Remove hex, every 9 seconds.

Makkert · Oct 20, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Remove hex. 2 second cast time, 7 second recharge time. Holy veil. 1 sec cast time, 10 second recharge. Holy veil removes one every 11 seconds, Remove hex, every 9 seconds.

That doesn't make Remove Hex better then Holy Veil. 2 seconds in which you don't heal, get attacked and can be interrupted isn't my personal favourite for hex removal.

Rico Carridan · Oct 20, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Was remove hex ever the hex remover of choice? It always seemed to be rather dismal spell to me, the casting duration is just too long, a mesmer with 0 fast casting could drop two cover hexes on before you are able to get rid of the primary. Smite/convert hex are much more interesting choices. Smite is basically the same as holy veil is now, except it does a little bit of damage and has a slightly longer recharge time. Convert costs more energy, but clears all hexes. Let's face it, prior to this patch, nobody ever ran holy veil. Doubling hex casting time simply isn't something that is worth investing energy into. And it's a lot of energy, if you add it up.

I would still love to have a hotkey that allows you to cancel a maintained enchantment though, but I guess in the interim, you could always look at trying to fit contemplation of purity or a similar skill in your build.

Doesn't really matter though, because, as we were discussing elsewhere, most monks apparently don't bother removing hexes anyway.

Rico

Ender Ward · Oct 20, 2005, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Remove Hex is obviously meant for a Mesmer/Monk to take advantage of.

Convert Hexes as well (but primary Monks stil use it because it's so powerful).

Some skills are clearly meant to be used on a secondary. Look at the Hammer R/W as example. Without access to stoneskin gauntlets, he can't benefit from increased knockdown time. But look, there's conviniently a skill with a set, long knockdown duration; Backbreaker. A skill that's very sub par on a Warrior primary, who can use stoneskin gauntlets to increase the duration on a much lower adrenaline Devastating Hammer or Earthshaker.

Or take Inspired Hex, it's great way to break Diversion, it accomplishes both hex removal and gains the user energy, something Monks are most in need of, not primary Mesmers.

There are skills in the game clearly meant to shine in combination with a different primary class than the one they're assigned to.

unienaule · Oct 20, 2005, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

That doesn't make Remove Hex better then Holy Veil. 2 seconds in which you don't heal, get attacked and can be interrupted isn't my personal favourite for hex removal.

It's still only one second longer than holy veil. I'm not really saying remove is better, they're just about equal.

Undivine · Oct 20, 2005, 09:07 AM // 09:07

After the update when I noticed it in the patch notes I gave Holy Veil a try. I used both benefits of the spell, though there was a lot of hexing so I usually ended up doing the remove portion of it. As a remove hex spell, take my word for it... Remove Hex is better.

It's a short cast time, yes, but removing it takes another second at least, due mostly to the fact that the enchantment removal interface isn't very responsive. Then there's that recast time. Bleach! You want every second, you know.

And the fact that it doubles the cast time of hexes seems nice on paper, but in practice it doesn't work very well. At least, not in PvE. The difference is hardly noticable and they still end up hexed anyway. A lot of hexes have very fast cast times to begin with, so doubling them doesn't do much. On top of that it has a mana degen penalty. If anything I'd say the spell still sucks, even after the update.

I think they should make it a protection spell, make it time-based (5-15 seconds, say) and make it a group effect spell. Then it'd be great. You don't even really need the hex removal part of it, though if that remained, it'd be a hex equivelant to Aegis, which would be nice but not too overpowered in my opinion.

Rey Lentless · Oct 20, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Remove hex was used prior to the patch because of the recharge time. Compared to smite hexes 15, and inspired's 20.. it was common for one monk to carry this for spammability.

I agree that holy veil now replaces this skill completely.

Remove hex should just be given a 1 sec cast time. That would balance this.

smurfhunter · Oct 20, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Remove hex should just be given a 1 sec cast time. That would balance this.

balance as in make holy veil retarded again, and remove hex usefull

i think a better balance would be if they tied it to the prot attribute, and had it be "for 1 to x seconds hexes take twice longer to cast etc, when this ends remove one hex"

that way it would be useable at 0 prot if it had like a 1 second duration, and the secondary effect would still be useable too at a higher level in protection

actually this would make me agree with the op. decreasing the duration of hexes is a bit overpowered imo since it would seriously decrease the effectiveness of water eles

Rey Lentless · Oct 20, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Holy veil would still be superior in a lot of ways.

By prebuffing before a fight or duing, you can make sure to get the first hex off and still be able to cast it again right way.

It has great synergy with contemplation of purity, which is the best counter against the frequent multiple migraine twitch mesmer builds currently used.

The double cast time on the opponents would make interupting by mesmers and rangers much easier.

Remove hex would have quicker recharge and remove quicker because it wouldn't require a click on the maintain icon. That would offset the bonuses holy veil would still have.

smurfhunter · Oct 20, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Holy veil would still be superior in a lot of ways.

By prebuffing before a fight or duing, you can make sure to get the first hex off and still be able to cast it again right way.

but at least it would be somewhat more difficult to pull this off, especially if it were a 5 second duration at 16 prot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Remove hex would have quicker recharge and remove quicker because it wouldn't require a click on the maintain icon. That would offset the bonuses holy veil would still have.

you could... make it be 2-5 seconds. yea idk... its kinda broken right now, but then so is that 3 migraine mesmer build...

Rey Lentless · Oct 20, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I think holy veil's fine now, I just think remove hex needs to be tweaked as veil makes it obsolete.

Como Fort · Oct 20, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I never use Remove Hex because it is just to easy to interrupt, especially with like Migraine and Arcane Conondrum etc. Anyways Holy Veil is my new fav counter cause I cast it on myself and then get rid of it as soon as Migraine comes on :P

twicky_kid · Oct 21, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49

i ussually don't use veil for the removal. i use it for the 2x casting time. you can remove with other hex removal that is just fine. negating fast casting or doubling the already high cast time on necro hexes is priceless. usually use it with a w/mo since they don't really need energy in the first place and back it up with purge sig.

LifeInfusion · Oct 21, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Use veil then remove hex so you dont get hexed out of your mind.

Raumoheru · Oct 21, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

With the last update, Holy Veil has become the hex removal option of choice. It is cast on a target, and then immediately canceled to remove the top-most hex. In practice, it acts just like Remove Hex but instead of taking 3 seconds to cast, it only takes 1 second.

This particular usage has all of the classic ear-marks of unbalance. First, we have a skill that is not used for it's primary effect (to double the casting duration of hex skills), but rather for an additional bonus that the skill has. Then, in order to trigger that bonus (hex removal) the caster does something non-intuitive: they cancel the long-lasting enchantment as soon as it goes up. The actual primary effect of the skill isn't even used. Further, when compared to a similar skill, Remove Hex, we find that this particular skill takes 1/3 of the casting time with almost an equivalent renewal. But besides this raw bonus, it has the side bonus of the primary effect of hex cast time doubling if one wishes to use it that way. In short, this skill is a far better remove hex than remove hex.

There are a few options I can think of:

1) don't make it a maintained enchantment, instead give it a duration of 20-30 seconds or so;

2) since just doubling the hex is inadequate benefit for the 1 pip draw, add another bonus that doesn't remove the hex immediately -- perhaps give the skill a 2..30% chance of immediately canceling any incoming hex.

3) drop the hex cast time doubling idea all together, replacing it with something like "hexes targeted at the enchanted have a 5...45% shorter duration".

Of the three, I like the last one. Holy Veil becomes a "hex duration shortener" rather than a casting penalty. The neat part about the last suggestion, is that your PvE bosses can be recoded to just have a "automatic" Holy Veil. Of course, there is also an implicit buff to Wastrel's Worry with the last option; but stuff like this should cut both ways.

On a related note; I'm still unaware of anyway to cancel a maintained enchantment via the keyboard. This has put people like me at a serious competitive dis-advantage. I stay away from the mouse for medical reasons, and I only use the keyboard in PvP. Up till this last update, I was a very competitive healer in PvP; but since I cannot effectively "abuse" Holy Veil like the rest of the healers, I am put at a competitive disadvantage. If the skill doesn't get fixed -- please provide a keyboard shortcut which allows me to cancel the maintained enchantment of my choice. Thanks.

dont like it because people use it for it's secondary effect and not it's primary huh? what about aftershock, nobody wants it just for its primary effect?

BahamutKaiser · Oct 21, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

This is a totaly bull shit arguement, remove hex cost 5 energy and can be used more often, Holy Viel cost 5 energy and a maintenance cost, same energy just like remove hex, but pay a maintenance cost. Furthermore, remove hex doesn't remove the hex in 1 second, it is activated in 1 second, it only removes a hex after it has been discontinued, so it doesn't remove hexes within 1 second compared to 3 seconds. Third, the main difference between remove hex and holy viel is that remove hex is designed to slow hexes, if your trying to stop a hex then you have to use it quickly, just like protection magic, it is ment to land before the enemies spell. 1 second is a long shot from interceeding mesmer spells, but it is reasonably fast.

I get tired of hearing every newb scream bloody unbalance every time something is changed just because they don't enjoy the improvement for what it is worth. Holy Viel cost more on a totaly different scale, it has to be cast and discontinued to remove a hex, and it is designed to be activated before the enemy puts they hex on a teammate, as well as remove the hex after it has landed.

Hate it if you want, but don't try to start a picket on a false unbalanced.

IxChel · Oct 21, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

This is a totaly bull shit arguement

There are 3 factors: energy, cast-time, and recharge.

In the energy department I think you have to wait 3 seconds before the 1pip degen costs you an extra point of energy. Any good monk that is proficient with a mouse can probably cancel that enchantment before the 3 seconds strikes; if not, its only 6en instead of 5en. Not a huge difference.

For recharge time, yes, it's 7s instead of 10s. This, in my humble opinion isn't that big of a difference. It's not double or anything like that.

The big difference is in cast-time: Remove Hex is 2s, Holy Veil is 1s. That 1s cast time difference, when the energy and recharge are effectively similar is an absolutely huge difference.

* it is twice as long -- twice

* Any ranger or warrior can interrupt a 2s skill since their "swing" is 1.5s and 1.33s or so respectively. A 1s skill is much much harder to interrupt; the difference here isn't minor, it's the difference between "mabye" you can get it, and "you have to be sleeping to miss".

* In a game, that 1s is time that you're letting a warrior get one more swing at you before you can continue to strife, etc. That's a good 30 points of damage -- assuming they don't bother using a skill for that hit.

The skinny is quite clear. Holy Veil _is_ a better Remove Hex than Remove Hex. It is certainly not, as you so eloquently put it, "bull shit". Further, argument is not spelled "arguement" (sic).

Quote:

Holy Viel cost more on a totaly different scale, it has to be cast and discontinued to remove a hex, and it is designed to be activated before the enemy puts they hex on a teammate, as well as remove the hex after it has landed.

We are not talking about the use of Holy Veil being used as-intended, we are talking about it being put up and immediately canceled. How it is designed to be activated is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that it isn't being used as designed is a clear indication that something is up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

I get tired of hearing every newb scream bloody unbalance every time something is changed .

So you open with an insult, fail to provide a coherent rebuttal, and then end with an ad hominem attack? Brilliant. Welcome to my ignore list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

dont like it because people use it for it's secondary effect and not it's primary huh? what about aftershock, nobody wants it just for its primary effect?

You quoted my entire post (can't bother to quote relevant sections?) yet obviously didn't read it. Welcome to my ignore list.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 21, 2005, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Twice as long to cast, same time to remove a hex, your arguement is stupid, only extreme players are going to cast Holy Viel and remove it in less then 2 seconds, alot of times when your trying to remove an enchantment it takes 3 or 4 clicks.

The best players will get a mear fraction of a second faster hex removal, they have to activate it and deactivate it to remove a hex, and it has to be done before the hex to impare the cast time of the enemies hex.

Your ranting like a redneck with no real cause, well rant all you want because it is balanced, and your not going to pursuade the developers with false and unfounded bias.

If you expected a common hex remove skill to compare to an advanced mid game one your silly, and expecting all moves to have equal effecitiveness is fruitless.

White Designs · Oct 21, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Bahamut, please stop sounding stupid.

I can drop a Holy Veil in about a fourth of a second, and I can do it while casting something else at the same time, its not hard. And also learn to spell.

IxChel, a lot of what you say makes sense, but I don't feel the skill is unbalanced, even though it renders another somewhat obsolete. For one, Holy Veil is still a very situational spot hex removal. Its not like the old Putrid Explosion which made every other corpse skill useless. Holy Veil simply just makes remove bad. Convert, Inspired, and Smite Hex all still have their uses in other places. Also, Holy Veil causes no major game problems, hex removal simply got a buff, which I felt was a good thing. Its not as if the uber holy veil now makes power hexing unviable. Lastly, Remove Hex still has uses. Granted, those uses are very limited since Holy Veil is so often better, but I think since Veil is not better in every way than Remove Hex, so there is still a window of usage for the latter skill.

I'd like to conclude by saying that using a skill not 'for what its intended' isn't necessary a sign of imbalance. Consume Corpse nowadays is primarily used for Corpse denial rather than health or energy gain, which I think is perfectly fine. Also, there are always going to be certain skills which are bad or practically useless, just look at Dwarven Battle Stance, essentially a crappy Choking Gas. Its not necessarily something that ruins the competitive landscape.